Re: [IAWA Forum] Pinaceae identification

From: Barbara Godbout <barbaragodbout@videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: [IAWA Forum] Pinaceae identification
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:55:36 -0400
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I did charcoal identification for most of North American east coast =
species, and I used an episcopic microscope with reflected light. =
Unfortunately, we don't find Cedrus here, but I'm pretty sure I saw some =
description of the genus either in Sweingrubber or Jacquiot's =
identification keys. As far as I can remember, Cedrus should have small =
crossfield pits. For Pinus, the north american species are evidently not =
the sames either. But try to create a good longitudinal radial section: =
if you have window like (fenestriform) crossfield pitting and smooth ray =
tracheids walls =3D white pine group; if you have window like pitting =
with dentate ray tracheids walls =3D red pine group; and if you have =
pinoid crossfield pitting and dentate ray tracheids walls =3D yellow =
pine group. My experience also showed me that white pine have bordered =
pits in the cell wall of the last tracheid of latewood (you can see that =
detail on a longitudinal tangential section). K.A. Chowdhury and S.S. =
Ghosh wrote something about Indian woods, but I don't know if it's =
complete enough to help you.

Barbara Godbout, research assistant
Department of Geography
Universit=E9 Laval
Quebec (QC) CANADA
418-628-1443
barbaragodbout@videotron.ca
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Kathleen Hawes=20
  To: rmiller1@wisc.edu ; cl379@cam.ac.uk=20
  Cc: iawa@COF.ORST.EDU=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [IAWA Forum] Pinaceae identification


  I am also conducting charcoal identification on the Pacific Northwest =
Coast of the United States, and find that many for many of the =
genus/species that I am trying to identify, I have to collect the wood =
myself and creat my own charcoal for the comparitive collection. I use a =
metallurgical microscope for these identifications; is this what you are =
using?

  Kathleen L. Hawes, Laboratory Director=20
  SPSCC Anthropology Lab
  aragalen@msn.com
  hawkat01@evergreen.edu
  khawes@spscc.ctc.edu
  (360) 754-7711 ext. 3970 Anthropology Lab
  (360) 561-5139 cell=20
  =20



  =20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
  Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:15:34 -0500
  From: rmiller1@wisc.edu
  Subject: Re: [IAWA Forum] Pinaceae identification
  To: cl379@cam.ac.uk
  CC: iawa@COF.ORST.EDU

  Normally you can only identify the pines into 3 groups -- red, white =
and yellow pines.  What groups are Pinus gerardiana and P. roxburghii? =
Cedrus should be rather distinctive. However, working with charcoal can =
be difficult.=20


  Regis=20


  Dr. Regis B. Miller, Executive Secretary of IAWA
  USDA Forest Service, Forest Products Laboratory
  Center for Wood Anatomy Research
  One Gifford Pinchot Drive
  Madison, WI  53726-2398


  Tele:  608/231-9341
  Fax :  608/231-9508
  Email: rmiller1@wisc.edu
  http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us






  On Aug 19, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Carla Lancelotti wrote:


  Dear list members,=20


  I am working on wood charcoal from Pakistan for my PhD and have =
recently found some conifer species that I am trying to identify. I have =
arrived to Family (Pinaceae) but I am having problems discerning genus =
and species for lack of reference material.


  Do any of you have, or can tell me where to find, descriptions and =
possibly pictures of Pinus gerardiana, P. roxburghii and Cedrus deodara? =
I am almost sure it is one of these three as both Pine and Cedar have =
been previously identified in archaeological material from this area. =
Unfortunately the publications I have read don't get to species level =
for pine and don't give a full description of cedar.


  Many thanks for your help.


  Carla



  ************************************************
  Carla Lancelotti
  Pitt-Rivers Laborotory for Bioarchaeology
  Department of Archaeology
  Downing Site
  Cambridge
  CB2 3DZ
  UK


  Tel (lab): +44 (0) 1223 333537
  cl379@cam.ac.uk












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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I did charcoal identification for most of North =
American=20
east coast species, and I used an episcopic microscope with reflected =
light.=20
Unfortunately, we don't find <EM>Cedrus</EM> here, but I'm pretty sure I =
saw=20
some description of the genus either in Sweingrubber or Jacquiot's=20
identification keys. As far as I can remember, Cedrus should have small=20
crossfield pits. For <EM>Pinus</EM>, the north american species are =
evidently=20
not the sames either. But try to create a good longitudinal radial =
section: if=20
you have window like (fenestriform) crossfield pitting and smooth ray =
tracheids=20
walls =3D white pine group; if you have window like pitting with dentate =
ray=20
tracheids walls =3D red pine group; and if you have pinoid crossfield =
pitting and=20
dentate ray tracheids walls =3D yellow pine group. My experience also =
showed me=20
that white pine have bordered pits in the cell wall of the last tracheid =
of=20
latewood (you can see that detail on a longitudinal tangential section). =
K.A.=20
Chowdhury and S.S. Ghosh wrote something about Indian woods, but I don't =
know if=20
it's complete enough to help you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Barbara Godbout, </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>research=20
assistant</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Department of Geography</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Universit=E9 Laval</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Quebec (QC) CANADA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>418-628-1443</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><A=20
href=3D"mailto:barbaragodbout@videotron.ca">barbaragodbout@videotron.ca</=
A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Daragalen@msn.com href=3D"mailto:aragalen@msn.com">Kathleen =
Hawes</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Drmiller1@wisc.edu=20
  href=3D"mailto:rmiller1@wisc.edu">rmiller1@wisc.edu</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dcl379@cam.ac.uk =
href=3D"mailto:cl379@cam.ac.uk">cl379@cam.ac.uk</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Diawa@COF.ORST.EDU=20
  href=3D"mailto:iawa@COF.ORST.EDU">iawa@COF.ORST.EDU</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 19, =
2009 8:53=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [IAWA Forum] =
Pinaceae=20
  identification</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>I am also&nbsp;conducting charcoal identification on =
the=20
  Pacific Northwest Coast of the United States, and find that many for =
many of=20
  the genus/species that I am trying to identify, I have to collect the =
wood=20
  myself and creat my own charcoal for the comparitive collection. I use =
a=20
  metallurgical microscope for these identifications; is this what you =
are=20
  using?<BR><BR><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt" size=3D3=20
  face=3D"Franklin Gothic Medium">Kathleen L. Hawes, Laboratory=20
  Director&nbsp;</FONT><BR><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt" size=3D3=20
  face=3D"Franklin Gothic Medium">SPSCC Anthropology Lab<BR><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:aragalen@msn.com">aragalen@msn.com</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:hawkat01@evergreen.edu">hawkat01@evergreen.edu</A><BR><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:khawes@spscc.ctc.edu">khawes@spscc.ctc.edu</A><BR>(360) =
754-7711=20
  ext. 3970 Anthropology Lab<BR>(360) 561-5139 cell=20
  <BR></FONT>&nbsp;<BR><BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;<BR>
  <HR id=3DstopSpelling>
  Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:15:34 -0500<BR>From: =
rmiller1@wisc.edu<BR>Subject:=20
  Re: [IAWA Forum] Pinaceae identification<BR>To: cl379@cam.ac.uk<BR>CC: =

  iawa@COF.ORST.EDU<BR><BR>Normally you can only identify the pines into =
3=20
  groups -- red, white and yellow pines. &nbsp;What groups =
are&nbsp;<I>Pinus=20
  gerardiana and</I>&nbsp;<I>P. roxburghii</I>? Cedrus should be rather=20
  distinctive. However, working with charcoal can be difficult.=20
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Regis=20
  <DIV><SPAN=20
  style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate; FONT: 12px Arial; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; =
COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px"=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-style-span>
  <DIV><BR></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN=20
  style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate; FONT: 12px Arial; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; =
COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px"=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-style-span>
  <DIV>Dr. Regis B. Miller, Executive Secretary of IAWA</DIV>
  <DIV>USDA Forest Service, Forest Products Laboratory</DIV>
  <DIV>Center for Wood Anatomy Research</DIV>
  <DIV>One Gifford Pinchot Drive</DIV>
  <DIV>Madison, WI&nbsp; 53726-2398</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Tele:&nbsp; 608/231-9341</DIV>
  <DIV>Fax :&nbsp; 608/231-9508</DIV>
  <DIV>Email: <A =
href=3D"mailto:rmiller1@wisc.edu">rmiller1@wisc.edu</A></DIV>
  <DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/">http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us</A></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR =
class=3DEC_Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN></DIV><BR>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>On Aug 19, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Carla Lancelotti wrote:</DIV><BR=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-interchange-newline>
  <DIV style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word">Dear list members,=20
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>I am working on wood charcoal from Pakistan for my PhD and have =
recently=20
  found some conifer species that I am trying to identify. I have =
arrived to=20
  Family (Pinaceae) but I am having problems discerning genus and =
species for=20
  lack of reference material.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Do any of you have, or can tell me where to find, descriptions =
and=20
  possibly pictures of <I>Pinus gerardiana</I>, <I>P. =
roxburghii</I>&nbsp;and=20
  <I>Cedrus deodara</I>? I am almost sure it is one of these three as =
both Pine=20
  and Cedar have been previously identified in archaeological material =
from this=20
  area. Unfortunately the publications I have read don't get to species =
level=20
  for pine and don't give a full description of cedar.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Many thanks for your help.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Carla</DIV><BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN=20
  style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: =
normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px"=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-style-span>
  <DIV style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
separate; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: =
normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: 0px"=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-style-span>
  <DIV style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word">
  <DIV>************************************************</DIV>
  <DIV>Carla Lancelotti</DIV>
  <DIV>Pitt-Rivers Laborotory for Bioarchaeology</DIV>
  <DIV>Department of Archaeology</DIV>
  <DIV>Downing Site</DIV>
  <DIV>Cambridge</DIV>
  <DIV>CB2 3DZ</DIV>
  <DIV>UK</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Tel (lab): +44 (0) 1223 333537</DIV>
  <DIV><A href=3D"mailto:cl379@cam.ac.uk">cl379@cam.ac.uk</A></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></SPAN><BR=20
  class=3DEC_Apple-interchange-newline></DIV></SPAN><BR=20
  =
class=3DEC_Apple-interchange-newline></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>=

  <HR>
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